Dad says "Put it in writing" trying to convince him to pay for his caregiving.

What your dad said makes sense. Put it in writing. Draw up a caregiving contract that specifies what your father will pay and what services he will receive for the pay. Then sign it in front of witnesses. After that, you as POA can pay your brother and SIL. The amount you mentioned sounds quite reasonable. It would be nice to have more brothers like you who care for the caregivers. :)

Thanks Jessie... Oh, I agree, once it's all agreed upon, we'll draw up something in writing he can sign. But right now It's not a contract we need. First we need the commitment from dad. It's not a contract dad's asking for. He wants a letter from me telling him what I want him to do and why I want him to do it. He keeps saying that he's paying for his care (his groceries and utilities is what he's paying) and doesn't understand why he should pay more.

I wonder if he doesn't just think we kids are after his money before he dies and this is one way we are "tricking" him into getting it. I need some good ideas as to what to write to him in the letter, convincing him of his need to pay my brother and sis in law. The last thing we want him to do is resent my brother and sil because he's having to "pay" them to take care of him, care which he, of course, doesn't think he needs...he says they go overboard when they don't need to.

And, by the way, I'm a sister...not brother. ;-)

Dustien, I take it this is a follow-up to your earlier question dealing with your father's gambling but reluctance to pay his caregivers, and that he's moved a little bit forward in his thinking but still needs some assistance to get to the commitment point?

1. Someone could call in-home care providers in your county (closer in rates than a state level comparison) with a list of what SIL does to get comparison rates.

2. That will establish a baseline for comparable services in the immediate area, and what he'd have to pay to hire the help. If SIL didn't do it, that would be his option.

3. I would also address the toll it takes on your SIL, not just in time but physically. As a last resort to convince himn, her declining health could be the motivator for suggesting that she and your brother alternately hire someone, because if she becomes ill, that's what likely would happen unless your brother takes FMLA.

She's the DIL, not the daughter, and she has a right to expectation of a reasonably healthy life of her own, as well as a marriage and the family life that brings. It's not fair to expect her to sacrifice that and care for him for free. She wasn't the beneficiary of his care when she was a child and while growing up.

And what about her own parents? Do they need care yet as well? She won't be able to care for two elder families.

4. If she does become ill, it might not just be for the short term. So you could also get costs of AL facilities in the area, in the event that became an option. But I wouldn't use it as a threat, just a suggestion of what full time institutional care would cost, likely a multiple(s) of $1500 per month.

5. She should be paid because beyond the actual work, she's facilitating an arrangement whereby he can live with family, have some level of freedom, and not have to be in a facility. That means a lot to an elder.

It sounds as if he's gradually moving toward acceptance but needs a little bit more encouragement in the form of rationalization. That's progress!

But do you think there's more to the "why should I pay them" if I can get it for free issue, such as that he feels it's a filial duty to care for one's parent? If there are these issues, then the rationalizations above aren't going to hold much weight.

I skimmed over the gambling post to refresh my memory on this situation and began to wonder if he's just waffling while pretending to agree, but holding off on making the commitment. Stalling tactics can be interpreted as consideration or just refusal to agree.

I wouldn't normally suggest pushing the situation, but you could suggest a time at which payments would begin, forcing the issue. If that doesn't happen, perhaps SIL might have to begin decreasing her care for him, as it seems as though it's accelerated in complexity since your last post.

Or maybe she could consider taking a vacation by herself; this might put some motivation on him to seal the deal.

As to the contract, assuming he signs, make sure the witnesses aren't family members, and that the witnesses witness both signatures. I would also add an acknowledgement, standard in contracts, that each party entered the agreement of his/her own free will and deed. I can find samples if you need them.

Acknowledgments typically are notarized. Some banks (Chase) provide this service for free to customers.

Sorry, I see you posted while I was typing away, and narrowed down the issues.

Perhaps your brother could visit a few AL facilities and get a breakdown of all they provide and the item by item cost. That's the kind of fees he'd pay if SIL wasn't doing it for free now. And it would easily work into the thousands of dollars.

I don't want to be critical, but it does sound as if he just expects this to be done for him as a matter of course.

He's probably confused about what he's being asked to pay for, and why. Although he appeared to understand what the money was for when it was first bought up to him, he may have forgotten by now. Asking for it to be put in writing may be his way of saving face, so he doesn't have to admit that he forgot.
If you write him a letter, make it simple and respectful. You might find out how much AL facilities in his area charge per month and add that information, to prove that he'll be paying less for getting what amounts to 24-hour care at home with family. Even though your SIL isn't employed outside the home, her time is still valuable, and she deserves to be paid for taking care of your father. Maybe he's from the generation that thinks taking care of elderly family members falls under the category of "women's work" that doesn't require reimbursement.
Some older people get obsessed with having enough money to last them until the end of their lives, and they become resistant to paying for things as a result. My MIL is one of those, plus I think she has trouble remembering how to write checks. When she owed us $900 for airfare and lodging when we took a trip together, I had to remind her several times to pay up. She has plenty of money, BTW, but she's forgetful. Later on, she offered to pay for her share of the trip, although she'd already done so.

Well Assisted Living is $100 a day and Nursing Homes are $200 a day and up.
You can't get a chief cook and bottle washer for less than that. So do put it in writing, and show him the numbers for ALF/NH. He can sign on the line or go live at the Casino. His choice.

"Maybe he's from the generation that thinks taking care of elderly family members falls under the category of "women's work" that doesn't require reimbursement."

I was thinking after I posted that this may be at the crux of the issue. Men of that era are sometimes till adjusting to the fact that we may have a woman as our next president.

My father once told me that he expected care in his senior years because that's what he provided when I was a child.

I reminded him that I wasn't the only one in the family, and that I would contact my sibling on the West Coast and tell him we needed an arrangement whereby he spent equal time back here helping out since we both were raised by the same parent and our obligations should be equal.

I never heard that argument again.

Find out what in-home caregivers (24/7) cost in your area. And what AL costs.

When you finally get him to sign the agreement make sure it's retroactive!

Garden Artist, thank you for some really good thoughts on this issue, as well as the rest of you. Yes, this is regarding my dad who gambles as much away as he should be paying my brother and SIL. I thought we had an understanding, but nothing's been done on his part yet so I called him and that's when he hit me up with the put what I'm asking of him in writing as well as the reasons as to why. I tried writing a letter this morning, but wasn't getting anywhere so came here to ask to see if maybe some of your idea will help me in putting it down in writing, and that's exactly what it did! I'll be referring to this thread as I write that letter. I'll be writing it tomorrow, when I'm fresh. Thanks all for your great advice!

Don't know where you are geographically, but in suburban Connecticut, NH is $15,000 a month, with a roomate. AL is like $6,000, with minimal care. Medication management, etc, is more.

If your SIL did work outside the home, what did she/could she earn? There's the opportunity cost of her staying home to care for him, as opposed to income plus SS for the future.

Garden Artist...the samples of an agreement between my dad and Brother and Sis In Law would be wonderful if you could point me toward them. Thanks!

Linda, SIL hasn't work outside the home since her last child was born 21 years ago, and dad knows that she had no plans to do so. She's just always been a home maker. Otherwise, that would be a good argument...thanks! ;-)

Ba8alou...15,000.00/mo???? That's crazy...who can afford that. I'll bet that's not what Medicare pays. It's probably like hospital bill... 45,000.00....actual payment by medicare insurance...12,000.00. That was my dad's three days in the hospital with pneumonia. Dad's in Texas... looks like average NH care is around 6,000.00. Connecticut folks need to move to Texas! LOL!

I would skip the letter to Dad.. Just write up the contract which specifies serves needed and given.. The contract will answer all his questions.. Then have it signed and notarized..

IMO he's just trying to delay forking over the dough..

Ask him if he wants to continue living with your brother or move to NH...

End of story..

Dustien; I have to say that re-reading your posts, it doesn't sound to me like this "in-house" arrangement is going to last very long. It frankly sounds like your dad needs a higher level of care (either several shifts of in-home care both for safety and sleep reasons) or a facility in which he has full time supervision. Perhaps starting with bringing someone in for the overnight shift, in addition to some housekeeping during the day to help with laundry and general housecleaning might provide the break your SIL so richly needs and deserves. And perhaps if Dad sees that it's someone else doing the work, he'll better understand why his needs to pay the bill.

How old is your SIL? Not getting sleep is a silent killer.

Thanks guys for your posts.

Ba8alou...SIL is 54... My niece, who lives close and is a stay at home mom, will be paid a portion of the 1500.00/mo to be up at night with him, at least while her husband's not working and can take care of their children (he's on unemployment because of a layoff)...she's a night owl anyway and has already volunteered to help.

assanache7 - Dad won't sign a contract without first having all his questions answered. If I could sit down with him and go over everything and then have him sign a contract I'd give that a try, but I'm in another state and have no time to get together with him for at least a month. So the letter it will have to be.

Ba8alou...we all made a pact with mom before she died to take care of dad and to do all that we can to keep dad out of a nursing home. My brother in law and SIL will exhaust themselves to the point of no return before they would ever consider it, and I'm right there behind them. Dad's always been a wonderful kind man and we all agree, even with his stubborn frame of mind now, we couldn't have asked for a better dad. He's always been there for us and we need to be there for him now. He would have to be really bad off and impossible for any of us to care for before we'd let him go into a facility.

We just need to convenience him to pay SIL and brother for their care of him. If he doesn't then I'm going to try convincing SIL that she needs to find a part time job (even if it's McDonalds) and then hire someone to come in and care for dad while she's at work. Bet it won't take long for him to figure out that he needs to pay her for his care instead of her working to contribute to the household budget while he pays a complete stranger to care for him (one who won't take him to the casino).

Thanks again...this forum and you guys are the BEST!

Best of luck, Dustien. Hope it works out!

Yahoo! When I last talked to dad, I told him I'd put it all in writing but it would be wonderful if, next time he went to the bank, he could take out some extra money and give it to my SIL until we get this all settled. Well, she called tonight and told me thanks for everything, that dad just gave her a nice bit of cash. That's a GIANT leap forward. GardenAngel...I think you were right when you said it sound like maybe he's coming around.

The letter's been written and emailed to brother. I asked him and SIL to proof it and let me know if they thought I should add anything, but I really think this is just a formality at this point now. I think dad realizes he should be helping out and that the letter is going to set his mind at ease that the amount mentioned isn't at all out of line, that, in fact, it's a really good deal for him!

You guys have all been great! I'm going through right now and LIKING all your posts!

Dad, I know you've always been one to pay your own way. You've never asked for handouts and we are proud of what you've achieved through hard work. Now someone is working very hard for you. We all love you and want the best for you, but Nelly is the one who is there and spending her time providing for your needs. We are glad she is, and we want to make sure she is compensated for her efforts. Paying for what you receive is consistent with how you've lived your life and the example you've set for us.

Good luck, Dustien!

You say this: "The last thing we want him to do is resent my brother and sil because he's having to "pay" them to take care of him, care which he, of course, doesn't think he needs...he says they go overboard when they don't need to."

Well, that's not QUITE the last thing you'd want. The LAST thing you'd want is for your brother and sil to think they're being taken advantage of by someone who doesn't appreciate what they're doing for him.

IMO, if you list a whole bunch of things they do for him, you've given him arguing points that he can refute. "They cook for you" becomes his focus...."They hardly EVER cook for me! I cook for myself." In one way or another, you make his argument for him. Point after point, you've given him things he can refute taking his focus off "the big picture". So, I'd suggest something like this:

The reason you should be paying your way, dad, is because everyone pays their way. In an assisted living facility, you might be paying $1500 a month or more--if you even QUALIFY for assisted living. If you need full-blown nursing home care, that figure could be $5,000 or much more.

If you live anywhere other than with _____ and _____, your needs will be secondary to the expediency of staff. Nowhere on EARTH would you get the loving attention that you get here with ______.

_____ and _____ have given up their privacy and peaceful life to give you the greatest gift of all. A circle of love that cares for you and keeps you safe. You're so loved here.

What were you doing at their age, Dad? Were you caring for an elderly parent, helping them keep their independence? Were you sleeping with one ear open so you could hear their footfalls in the middle of the night and get up to make sure they were safe? Were you helping someone to the bathroom five times a day? Fixing their medicines? Taking them to the doctor? [List a bunch of stuff here.]

We both know you weren't. _____ and _____ are giving you a precious gift. Honestly? Money can't even buy that gift. But giving them $1,500 a month [or whatever] shows them that you value everything they're doing for you. It pays them back in a small way for the sacrifices they're making every single day to care for you. It's the very least you can do.

You [and mom] saved all of your lives for a rainy day. It's pouring outside now, dad. Time to help the very people who are holding your umbrella.

It is my sincere wish that you agree to help out _____ and _____ by paying $1,500 a month toward your care. It's the right thing to do. [If you pay his bills for him, continue with this....] Starting August 1st, with your permission, I'm going to start showing them how much we appreciate all they do for you.

I love you dad. We ALL love you. I'm so happy for you that _____ is in your life at this time. You raised a wonderful son. And daughter, of course. ;)

Love,

Dustien

Good going!

Jeannie and Maggie...wow...you both have some very good point. I've already emailed the letter to my brother, but If he's not given it to Dad yet, I think I'll tell him to hold off on that one and rewrite it using some of those points. Thanks again, so much!

Ok..got ahold of brother, told the to tear up the letter I sent them to proof and I'm rewriting it! THIS FORUM IS AWESOME! Maggie, you should be a speech writer...or at the very least you should take that letter you just wrote and post it on every senior forum, including this one, in a thread of it's own. It's an excellent letter for anyone trying to get a parent to help pay their way. I will be forever grateful that you posted such thoughtful prose, as will, I'm sure, my brother and SIL. It's definitely going to make my dad think he raised a genius! I will be using it, modifying it a bit with some of the other thoughts that have been shared here, and I've no doubt it will put dad over the top. THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!

Well, Dustien, you sure did make my day. Thank you for all the kind words. I hope it works. I'm thinking it will. ;)

These last few posts remind me that sometime ago I offered to find sample contracts. It's a good thing I didn't. Jeanne and Maggie offered solutions that are much more personal and to the point that I could have found or created.

I'm really glad this has worked out so well.

Garden Artist, you had some great thoughts to, and I'm forever greatful to you, and everyone else in here who offered help. What a brilliant group of folks are hanging about in here. And a big thank you to the group who created this whole site, agingcare.com! Kuddo's to them and I hope it' a huge success for all involved so they will be able to financially care for their elderly parents in comfort, if and when the time comes. At least they know where to go for great advice... ;-)

I think your dad needs to be in an assisted living facility. It's too much for your SIL regardless of the money. If he can pay them he can pay for one, He may find he really likes it. Don;t wear that poor woman out.

Amazing, Thanks for your thoughts.. It might come to that in the future, but for now my brother and sister in law both would not even consider it. The time might come when, as POA, I might have to press the issue of AL or NH care, but it's not here yet. As long as they are willing and able to care for Dad, and his health is relatively stable, and they, who are on the front line, feel it's the best option for dad right now, then I'm all for what they are doing. I just expect Dad to pay them for being on the front lines.