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My husband has dementia and incurred terrific credit card debt and even a line of credit on the house. Where the money has gone, I have no idea; however, this out of control debt was a trigger to his diagnosis.
Rules are different from state to state and it is suggested to discuss this with an attorney. However, where I live as long as my husband is considered competent, I would be held responsible for his financial indiscretions no matter if I am on the document or not. If he is declared incompetent or should die, I would no longer be responsible for the debt incurred with only his name on it but would be responsible for debt with both our names on it. Through an attorney, it is possible to negotiate the amount I would owe to 50/50 which would reduce the amount of debt due on credit cards but not on a mortgage or car payment. Good luck and please seek out an attorney on this matter.
Agree with others. You need to talk to an atty and in your best interest to bring a letter from the doctor that substantiates the credit spending was a clue something wrong. If house in both names, how did he get line of credit without you signing? Did he use credit cards that you did not know he had or were they issued for both of you to use? Rules differ from state to state, so you need legal advice quite soon.
Lastlegg: Imho, you'd do yourself a favor by retaining an elder law attorney. If the credit card was also in YOUR name as well as the home equity loan - if it is also in YOUR name, then on both counts, you would be responsible.
It depends upon whose name was on the account--Primary! True story: when my father died, there was considerable debt on their credit card for the monthly payments on their assisted living cottage --which we planned to pay in full. First, I called (something like Visa) to get the account name changed to my mother. They gave us such a hassel! Even though they had used the card for 24+ years, she was only a 'secondary" user and had no rights. She would have to apply for a card in her own right. Her last job was in a gun factory in WWII!!! They couldn't find a way to work with us----so we left the debt as it was: $6,500.47
Second...talk with loan people at the bank --they can help you
You need to speak to an attorney asap. Unfortunately, I do not have the time now to read others' responses however I bet many give you the same support / encouragement.
He took out a line of credit against the house and the house is real estate and the bank will want to be paid back. I wouldn't hire a forensic accountant and throw good money after bad. The money is gone. Even if he was scammed, the money is gone and it would take a Madoff-like scam to recoup any of it. And that will take a lawsuit.
This is a sad reality of allowing people who have noticeable cognitive decline to have credit cards and access to large amounts of money.
How much money from the line of credit has been spent?
Laws differ state to state. In Arkansas, we have community property laws and everything is equal partnership if there aren't pre-nups... likewise, financial obligations are commonly shared. If they are legitimate debts, you are likely liable for them!
As long as your name is not on the card--no. In other words, once he dies, so will the debt. Providing your name is NOT on the card.
However, if you divorce him, the Judge can order the incurred debt as "community property" so you could end up being responsible for half of it even with *separate names on cards*. That is why I got a prenuptial agreement before getting married and drawn up by a well-established reputable marriage lawyer. Cost me $1,200...but worth it. And he signed it before we got married. So as long as my name is not on his credit card and I divorce him I'm not responsible for his debts. Equally he is not responsible for my debts. Our credit cards are in our separate names with separate bank accounts. That is the value of a prenuptial agreement. Once you get married, you can NO LONGER get a prenuptial agreement.
A prenup will not save you from incurred debts which were cosigned. You are stuck with that. Further, a prenup will not save anybody from such things as child support orders. In case someone wants to know.
I do not want to sound accusatory, and I apologize for saying this but if a person has dementia you need to be control of the finances and know everything that goes on. Since you obviously failed to do that, you now have this serious problem. What you could do is file for bankruptcy, and explain the situation to the judge. Judges tend to be sympathetic about medical conditions, and they endeavor to rule fairly. You will also need to shred every credit card you have and get dPOA.
Contact legal aide in your community -- they can help at least refer you to a more affordable attorney. If you qualify you may even get a very low cost or free attorney to set up bankruptcy proceedings.
Marriage is a very responsible contract. Get your ducks in a row or you can get in serious problems.
This is a cautionary situation to everyone. Everyone has suggested an attorney and they are absolutely correct. Everyone who has a loved one with dementia:
Mare sure they have zero access to any financial accounts. If you need to go to the bank to change everything, please do so.
Mare sure(and double check) any online sources of expenditure- amazon, Walmart ect. You would be stunned as to how fast folks can order items. Keep checking, if a loved one is locked out, they may be able to find another way to place an order.
Do search your home, garage and vehicles for hidden stashes of money. Many folks who have dementia also have a fear of not having any cash on hand or chose not to trust banks.
Pre-paid gift cards are an excellent suggestion.
It might not be a bad idea to alert your financial advisor regarding the situation. This will insure that your loved one can't pick up the phone and transfer funds out of any trust or retirement account.
You are most likely legally responsible for your husband’s credit card debt.
Consult with an attorney to find loopholes.
For example, you may be able to “settle” with them for less (or have interest reductions) if they fear you are not going to pay.
Can anything be returned?
If there was anything that he bought that was outrageously expensive? Your attorney may be able to argue that the clerk knew, or should have known he was incapacitated.
I would definitely contact an attorney. If your name and social security aren't on the cards I would lean towards no, they can't come after you because you never authorized the accounts, but each state in the US acts like its own county with some of their laws so I would seek out legal help on that one.
If the house is in your name, I ephod imagine yes your on the hook for lines of credit that could cause you to lose the house. But if he did it without your knowledge then I imagine the house is not in your name? I would be equally concerned about what is going to happen to the house once he passes and make sure you have somewhere to go if he doesn't will it to you. Sorry you are going thru this tough time - sending prayers you find your way through.
You are not responsible for his credit card debt if your name isn't on them and they're not joint accounts. Is your house in both of your names? If it is then how was your husband able to take a line of credit on it without your consent if it's owned jointly? That's what would worry me because it sounds like a scam. Most definitely talk to whatever bank or lending agency he took this line of credit out on the house with. As for the credit cards, don't even worry too hard about that. If the debt is under $10,000 they won't bother really going after it because it's not worth their time. You could just stop paying them entirely and wait it out. They'll harass you for a while with the phone calls and notices. They will then make you an offer to settle the debt. Usually for pennies on the dollar or the sell the debt to a collection company and they try to collect something on it.
Been there, done that. Had to pay the bills. I suggest you go through the house and see if you can find a "stash" somwhere. My LO took out a very large amount as 2nd loan on the house... I was able to use a lawyer to sue the bank holding the loan, because they allowed him to borrow way over what was reasonable....Contact a lawyer...I was lucky to have Legalshield...They were fantastic.
Somewhere there r credit card statements. I’d try to get those. They will tell the tale of where $ went & if he was scammed. Or he’s just buying sh*t he doesn’t need or doing cray cray stuff like online gambling or sex
How Is he making payments on CC & what is he using for $ to pay the debt? Is LOC $ being used to do mo minimum payments? Do y’all have a mortgage & car notes? Owe taxes?
I’m in the see a bankruptcy atty camp & initially by yourself. Most do a free consultation and you want to go in prepared with info on all the debt. I imagine the better BK ones will have a list of items they want you to bring in for the first visit….. it’s to see if you have to be a joint or he can do a separate filing; and if your a Chapter 7 or if you will have to do a 11 or 13. Some attorneys only, absolutely only do BK while others do other law as well. I’d get the BK only ones as they will know how much of an issue your hubs dementia is going to be….. like what the federal hearing officers for your district are apt to ask at the creditors meeting and if hubs can seem aware enough to answer so he can file on his own…. Or if you file joint, if the officer will let you do all the Questions & Answers without hubs speaking….. or if his dementia / incapacity means he cannot easily answer and so he cannot exactly do the required hearing so BK is not an option for him; plus they will know exactly how COVID is affecting the creditors meeting and if he / you can go via zoom…. They will know which companies are apt to show up at the hearing. The Bk only ones will also have a better idea as to how easy it will be to get affirmation done. I have a dear friend w huge medical debt (b 4 Covid) & is doing Ch 7, they had health insurance too it’s life flight &out of network related.
You need to discuss with an elder lawyer, if your husband has incurred debt whilst being a documented vulnerable person then someone is committing fraud, and tracing the money is something you need advice on how to go about. Do you have POA or guardianship? These are something you need advice on as you will need the authority to find out from CC company where the money went, same for whoever the line of credit on the house is with. Financial companies cannot hide behind "we did what he said" IF you have authority to deal with them. I assume the house is in your husband's name only - which is a lesson for everyone - if he was was able to set up a line of credit without you being informed. Whether the debt has to be paid is likely to be down to how much effort you are willing to put into sorting it out - but seek advice of lawyer on what your options are.
TaylorUK, it's my experience that in the US, Registers of Deeds, or Recorders of Deeds in local county (or other jurisdictional area) governments maintain recorded documents, which the line of credit likely would be. Prior to the pandemic, anyone could go to their offices and do a search for lines of credit and other documents.
Some of this data has been digitized and is available online, at a cost. Someone still could try just calling the office for a quick search on parties to the line of credit. This doesn't require an attorney, or anyone else for that example. I could call and get data on neighbors' loans if I wanted to (which I don't).
Check with a lawyer who deals with elder law for your state.
Please take away any access to money. I like the idea of giving him a reloadable gift card from a major credit card company as his "debit" or "credit card."
The OP maybe needs to make sure they are not victims of identity fraud and that the cc charges and line of credit were not acquired by someone else who maybe scammed her husband. Maybe this is why she can't find where the money went...
From what I remember of credit card obligations, it depends on some factors:
1. Whether or not title to the card is held jointly, or
2. Whether or not one person is a signatory only.
3. There may be other criteria established by the issuer of the credit card, and there may have been legal changes during the pandemic.
I used to rely on a good explanation by BankRate, but couldn't find the specific reference to obligations.
As to the line of credit, did you sign the loan documents? If so, and the two of you executed it jointly, you do have responsibility. In my experience, the banks I've dealt with require all owners of record (on the recorded title) to sign. Under certain circumstances, someone might sign a Guaranty only, but not the other loan documents.
My SILs father had credit card in his name only in NC. He had only charged $500. SILs Mom was told she did not owe the debt. But as said, you need to find out the law in ur State.
As always, if you want to rely on legal advice, consult an appropriate attorney.
If I recall correctly, if you are in a community property state, both spouses are responsible for credit cards acquired after the marriage, even if the cards are only in one spouse's name. Otherwise you only are responsible for cards in your own name as a borrower, not as an authorized user.
The line of credit on the house puzzles me since I thought that all joint owners had to sign to get a loan. Maybe your state is different or maybe it was an inactive line set up in the past. I'd suggest checking for irregularities in the application.
Can you run (and then freeze) his credit reports as POA? If he has just been diagnosed, he may still be competent enough for a lawyer to update POA and other essential paperwork.
You're right. If the house is owned jointly, then it would require both parties to agree to borrowing on it, or taking a line of credit. This is why it sounds to me like the husband got scammed in some way.
Stacy, no offense, if she can not be held responsible or have non SS income garnished why would she need to discharge (file bankruptcy) the debt and/or negotiate 0% interest?
I think that I stand by my original post, variables in the situation require her to see an attorney and consulting with a tax professional to find out what her unique situation is.
I think it depends on whether only his name is on the cc account. You can look in Experian, TransUnion and Equifax credit rating companies under your name and then his to see if you are impacted. In terms of paying the debt, I think he is liable but depending on how much we're talk about you may want to consult a lawyer to make sure you yourself are protected from creditors going forward.
This is really a question for an attorney. There are variables that make a difference in your responsibility. Please seek legal counsel. I would start the search by asking my tax professional if they have a good referral.
LastEgg, welcome to the forum. I am so sorry for this trouble.
The answer is very much stste dependent.
It is VERY much worth your while to engage a highly qualified ElderCare attorney to guide you. Perhaps a forensic accountant and lawyer working together can trace the funds.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
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APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
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If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
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This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
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Good luck and please seek out an attorney on this matter.
True story: when my father died, there was considerable debt on their credit card for the monthly payments on their assisted living cottage --which we planned to pay in full. First, I called (something like Visa) to get the account name changed to my mother. They gave us such a hassel! Even though they had used the card for 24+ years, she was only a 'secondary" user and had no rights. She would have to apply for a card in her own right. Her last job was in a gun factory in WWII!!! They couldn't find a way to work with us----so we left the debt as it was: $6,500.47
Second...talk with loan people at the bank --they can help you
Gena / Touch Matters
This is a sad reality of allowing people who have noticeable cognitive decline to have credit cards and access to large amounts of money.
How much money from the line of credit has been spent?
Especially if he owns a house as they can just pit a lein on the house.
They probably wouldn't go directly after you if you were not on the credit card.
Take and cut up all credit cards.
However, if you divorce him, the Judge can order the incurred debt as "community property" so you could end up being responsible for half of it even with *separate names on cards*. That is why I got a prenuptial agreement before getting married and drawn up by a well-established reputable marriage lawyer. Cost me $1,200...but worth it. And he signed it before we got married. So as long as my name is not on his credit card and I divorce him I'm not responsible for his debts. Equally he is not responsible for my debts. Our credit cards are in our separate names with separate bank accounts. That is the value of a prenuptial agreement. Once you get married, you can NO LONGER get a prenuptial agreement.
A prenup will not save you from incurred debts which were cosigned. You are stuck with that. Further, a prenup will not save anybody from such things as child support orders. In case someone wants to know.
I do not want to sound accusatory, and I apologize for saying this but if a person has dementia you need to be control of the finances and know everything that goes on. Since you obviously failed to do that, you now have this serious problem. What you could do is file for bankruptcy, and explain the situation to the judge. Judges tend to be sympathetic about medical conditions, and they endeavor to rule fairly. You will also need to shred every credit card you have and get dPOA.
Contact legal aide in your community -- they can help at least refer you to a more affordable attorney. If you qualify you may even get a very low cost or free attorney to set up bankruptcy proceedings.
Marriage is a very responsible contract. Get your ducks in a row or you can get in serious problems.
Everyone who has a loved one with dementia:
Mare sure they have zero access to any financial accounts. If you need to go to the bank to change everything, please do so.
Mare sure(and double check) any online sources of expenditure- amazon, Walmart ect. You would be stunned as to how fast folks can order items. Keep checking, if a loved one is locked out, they may be able to find another way to place an order.
Do search your home, garage and vehicles for hidden stashes of money. Many folks who have dementia also have a fear of not having any cash on hand or chose not to trust banks.
Pre-paid gift cards are an excellent suggestion.
It might not be a bad idea to alert your financial advisor regarding the situation. This will insure that your loved one can't pick up the phone and transfer funds out of any trust or retirement account.
Best of luck!
Consult with an attorney to find loopholes.
For example, you may be able to “settle” with them for less (or have interest reductions) if they fear you are not going to pay.
Can anything be returned?
If there was anything that he bought that was outrageously expensive? Your attorney may be able to argue that the clerk knew, or should have known he was incapacitated.
If the house is in your name, I ephod imagine yes your on the hook for lines of credit that could cause you to lose the house. But if he did it without your knowledge then I imagine the house is not in your name? I would be equally concerned about what is going to happen to the house once he passes and make sure you have somewhere to go if he doesn't will it to you. Sorry you are going thru this tough time - sending prayers you find your way through.
Is your house in both of your names? If it is then how was your husband able to take a line of credit on it without your consent if it's owned jointly? That's what would worry me because it sounds like a scam.
Most definitely talk to whatever bank or lending agency he took this line of credit out on the house with.
As for the credit cards, don't even worry too hard about that. If the debt is under $10,000 they won't bother really going after it because it's not worth their time. You could just stop paying them entirely and wait it out. They'll harass you for a while with the phone calls and notices. They will then make you an offer to settle the debt. Usually for pennies on the dollar or the sell the debt to a collection company and they try to collect something on it.
I was able to use a lawyer to sue the bank holding the loan, because they allowed him to borrow way over what was reasonable....Contact a lawyer...I was lucky to have Legalshield...They were fantastic.
How Is he making payments on CC & what is he using for $ to pay the debt? Is LOC $ being used to do mo minimum payments? Do y’all have a mortgage & car notes? Owe taxes?
I’m in the see a bankruptcy atty camp & initially by yourself. Most do a free consultation and you want to go in prepared with info on all the debt. I imagine the better BK ones will have a list of items they want you to bring in for the first visit….. it’s to see if you have to be a joint or he can do a separate filing; and if your a Chapter 7 or if you will have to do a 11 or 13. Some attorneys only, absolutely only do BK while others do other law as well. I’d get the BK only ones as they will know how much of an issue your hubs dementia is going to be….. like what the federal hearing officers for your district are apt to ask at the creditors meeting and if hubs can seem aware enough to answer so he can file on his own…. Or if you file joint, if the officer will let you do all the Questions & Answers without hubs speaking….. or if his dementia / incapacity means he cannot easily answer and so he cannot exactly do the required hearing so BK is not an option for him; plus they will know exactly how COVID is affecting the creditors meeting and if he / you can go via zoom…. They will know which companies are apt to show up at the hearing. The Bk only ones will also have a better idea as to how easy it will be to get affirmation done. I have a dear friend w huge medical debt (b 4 Covid) & is doing Ch 7, they had health insurance too it’s life flight &out of network related.
Some of this data has been digitized and is available online, at a cost. Someone still could try just calling the office for a quick search on parties to the line of credit. This doesn't require an attorney, or anyone else for that example. I could call and get data on neighbors' loans if I wanted to (which I don't).
Please take away any access to money. I like the idea of giving him a reloadable gift card from a major credit card company as his "debit" or "credit card."
Good point. The husband could have been scammed.
1. Whether or not title to the card is held jointly, or
2. Whether or not one person is a signatory only.
3. There may be other criteria established by the issuer of the credit card, and there may have been legal changes during the pandemic.
I used to rely on a good explanation by BankRate, but couldn't find the specific reference to obligations.
As to the line of credit, did you sign the loan documents? If so, and the two of you executed it jointly, you do have responsibility. In my experience, the banks I've dealt with require all owners of record (on the recorded title) to sign. Under certain circumstances, someone might sign a Guaranty only, but not the other loan documents.
If I recall correctly, if you are in a community property state, both spouses are responsible for credit cards acquired after the marriage, even if the cards are only in one spouse's name. Otherwise you only are responsible for cards in your own name as a borrower, not as an authorized user.
The line of credit on the house puzzles me since I thought that all joint owners had to sign to get a loan. Maybe your state is different or maybe it was an inactive line set up in the past. I'd suggest checking for irregularities in the application.
Can you run (and then freeze) his credit reports as POA? If he has just been diagnosed, he may still be competent enough for a lawyer to update POA and other essential paperwork.
You're right. If the house is owned jointly, then it would require both parties to agree to borrowing on it, or taking a line of credit.
This is why it sounds to me like the husband got scammed in some way.
A forensic accountant might determine if a scam or financial abuse is in play, which will be useful if he needs Medicaid funding.
I think that I stand by my original post, variables in the situation require her to see an attorney and consulting with a tax professional to find out what her unique situation is.
This is very much state dependent.
You really need to engage an eldercare attorney.
Have you talked to an Eldercare attorney or forensic accountant by tracing the funds?
The answer is very much stste dependent.
It is VERY much worth your while to engage a highly qualified ElderCare attorney to guide you. Perhaps a forensic accountant and lawyer working together can trace the funds.