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Before starting, I do dislike the 4000 character limit!

This is PART I:
jackcooper;

After reading all your posts and the replies from others, I have questions and recommendations. 

There’s a lot of "I've told her this...", "She should do that...", telling her how she should think, what she should do, etc. I would recommend that you do NOT draw that line in the sand, and make this an ultimatum, as it is likely going to backfire on you.

Yes, your needs and wants should be considered, but we’re not hearing anything about or from your wife about what HER needs and wants are. I would recommend you take time to understand what HER needs are - without recrimination.

Marriage IS a partnership and both parties should be sharing what they want/need. All we have heard is what YOU want/need. The counselor should be suggesting how you should interact with your wife without causing a rift and how to work on a compromise to get at least some of what you BOTH want rather than just telling you she should be in therapy. Honestly, that counselor isn't doing you any favors. I would find another, or a marriage counselor, but AFTER you have a real discussion with your wife (LISTEN during this session, don't just fire back with what you want – she’s already heard all that!)

TRY as best you can to sit down with your wife and ASK her what SHE wants, in life and retirement. LISTEN. Ask her if she could use a break from care-giving, even if it is an hour, a day or a weekend. LISTEN. Find out where her head is at.   LISTEN!

Reading various posts in this forum, you can see people come in all flavors. Some have a really special relationship with mom or dad and need that one-on-one. Some feel like they need to do what they do to get recognition or some "reward" from the parent (did not have a good relationship and trying to build one now.) Some do it because it is expected of them, or it is "the right thing to do." Every story is unique, although they may share some qualities. Your wife might get her greatest pleasure from caring for her mother - nothing really wrong with that.

To be continued….
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I want to respond in depth to your question about your MIL - and your issue with your wife but I want to know this first.  Since your MIL is pretty spry and is just starting to have some memory care problems, what does she think about all this.  Have you or your wife asked her if she would like to "take a vacation" (aka respite care in a local assisted living)?  It's not clear to me if it's your wife or your MIL who is nixing the AL either here or in FL. Are your sure your wife at any time share your desire to move to FL?
I was an only child and I know sometimes us "daughters" can get a little stuck on our caregiving role even if it tires us out. It's like we feel the need to give back to the mother (or father) who gave us everything. My Mom had a stroke 3 years before she passed away. She and I had always lived together and we had developed a relationship. Yet when I met a new man who I liked very much, she said to me, "He's a very nice man. You make a nice pair. I know you love me and will always take care of me but don't let your concern for me put the brakes on a great relationship. I've lived my life and it's been good, Now go live yours." She was 89 and I was 67 at the time, proving what a great woman she was.

My friend's father fought the move to an AL like a mad dog. Wouldn't speak to the family for a week, refused to come out of his new room for 2 days and refused the first day's meals. Fast forward 10 days and he loved it! Raved about the new people he was meeting, the activities and how good the food was. Still didn't have much time to chat with the family.... he was too darn busy going to activities and learning to paint at 98 (turned out to be a really talented painter too)!
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katiekat2009 Mar 2019
My mom loved it too, and, with 7 kids, we visited often.
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I feel your frustration. I am 66 and single. My 92 yo mother lives with me in a too huge home that I would love to sell & move out of state. She refuses to move. I, too, feel my “good years” slipping away. It’s not like I want her to die but when I hear of people living long into their 100’s, knowing I could be in my 80’s, it feels overwhelming. I know, I would never put my children through this & if I had a husband, I wouldn’t expect him to sacrifice his happiness to care for my mom. IMO, your best option is moving to FL with mil if she likes it or not. Your wife undoubtedly worries about guilt (like the rest of us) if she makes the wrong decision. It’s very telling that you don’t think your wife will get therapy. You need back up. You need to be heard. Good luck to you!
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Myownlife Mar 2019
Madsad, do you own the home? If so, since you want to move out of state, just take charge and do it.

My mom and I are similar ages... I am 65, she is almost 94, and resents living here with me. She wants to go back to her home 3 hours away ( with no family, friends, or other support) and she is unable to take care of herself (other than she does her own personal care). This morning, she said I just don't want to go to the doctor I don't feel like it. After feeling really bad all this week, blood pressure spiking in the afternoons, and a recent UTI, and today is Friday, I said I am sorry but I am taking you to the doctor. I have a full schedule Monday, and made this appointment this morning to find out what is wrong... we are going. So now she is getting ready.

Sorry to talk about my situation so much, but the point is.... you and your needs are important, too. IF I were in your shoes and really wanted to do that, I would just say Sorry, this is what I need to do, and we are doing it. And then maybe along the way, she may get excited thinking about new possibilities or not. If not, YOU stay focused and start planning!!

Our mom's for 90+ years have been doing things their way. It is time while we have our health and desires, to begin taking charge and making decisions even with faced with our mother's adversity.
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Jack,
Just lost the long post I wrote, gggrrrr! Short on time, so I'll cut to the chase.

You want your feelings validated. Well, of course your feelings are valid! You feel left out, you feel lonely, you feel sorry for yourself, you want to chuck everything & live your dream in Florida.

Your wife's feelings are valid as well. What does she want? Does she want you to hold her & stroke her hair at the end of a long day? Does she want to hear you say she has done a wonderful job all these years without you saying she is totally screwing up your retirement? Can she tell you that she is worn to the bone from caregiving & can't remember ever having another life? Does she feel safe telling you that she has been holding her breath for years, afraid of what she will find when she opens her Mom's door? Can she tell you that she feels like she will break into a million tiny pieces if she relaxes for even a few minutes? What were her dreams & hopes for retirement? She probably didn't dream of being left behind caring for her mom while you go off to start a new life!!! Maybe she dreamed of leaving you & starting over!

You've been helping her caregive all these years. You know the daily routine. Start small & build up. Watch MIL while your wife takes a nap or bath. Schedule your wife a spa day & fill in with MIL! Order in from a favorite restaurant, get out the china & candles & wine & romance your wife. Organize overnight caregiving, pack your wife's bag, get in the car & go to a B&B. Don't ask, don't explain. Just get in there & make it happen.

It may not be easy but it will be worth it. Or not. But you won't know if you don't try.

And for crying out loud, don't wet her leg about how she & her mom are ruining your retirement!!! You don't want to hear back that your retirement is ruining her life.
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notrydoyoda Feb 2019
his retirement is not ruining her life. the man feels like he is not married and emotionally he is not
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Another possibility. Find a marriage therapist, make an appointment and then ask your wife to go with you. If not, then go yourself. Your wife has been enmeshed with her mother for 25 years.
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katiekat2009 Mar 2019
He's in therapy.
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MIL may be sweet but selfish. Even in her current mental state she should have jumped at the chance to leave the cold and snow, esp since he is willing to move her down with wife and he.
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dlpandjep Feb 2019
Shad - She's 100 years old.  Wait a few years and you'll understand. 😊
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Is this a great forum, or what Jack?

Some really good advice here sir. Let us know. We all learn from each other.
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Your wife has already chosen her mother over you. Maybe you need to calmly separate to wake you wife up.
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You have a few options that might work.
1. Ask your wife if you can schedule a vacation and place Mom in Assisted Living for RESPITE. This would be a 1 or 2 week stay just while you are on vacation.
While on vacation you can discuss what the next steps are going to be.

2. You can hire a caregiver, through an agency would be the easiest way to do this. Then once you have one in place you can plan weekend trips or even day trips just so your wife can get back to being a wife and not a caregiver. This might be easier for her to transition with.

Sad fact is statistics show that often a caregiver dies before the person they are caring for dies. This is due to a lot of factors. Caregivers neglect their own health. Stress is also a huge factor. Part of taking care of self is getting rest, getting away, keeping some boundaries that help maintain a "normal" life.

I doubt that your wife would all of a sudden agree to place her mom but I think after a vacation or a few mini vacations she might realize that her mom will do very well with others caring for her. This is a difficult thing for a lot of "primary" caregivers to accept. While a paid caregiver or a facility might not do it "just the way she does things" or things are not "perfect" her mom will adapt and your wife will realize that she can relax a bit and let someone else do some of the "dirty work" and she can be a daughter not a caregiver.
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Jack,

Thanks to many great people on this site I am researching assisted living facilities in my area for my mom. Takes a bit of time and effort but I think it is the best thing overall for everyone.
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mally1 Feb 2019
Kudos Needhelp! I think you and I may fall off the fence together.... A nurse at the doctor's office asked my mom today if she still lived alone, and was shocked that she does.
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Jack,

Oh my gosh, all too familiar but we are under the same roof with my mom. It’s hard. My mom has lived with us since 2005.

My husband is wonderful but I know deep down he’d like to have me all to himself too. I miss private time with my husband so much. We looked forward to our empty nest years. Our kids are grown and out of the house. Youngest one in college.

Having a senior citizen mom is like having a kid except instead of growing up and becoming independent they rely on us more and more.
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katiekat2009 Mar 2019
Then why are you doing it to him? You may need to read the OP's letter for the other perspective. Your wants aren't any more important than your husband's and you may wake up alone one day soon. Time runs out for everyone, and your husband doesn't deserve your "leftovers" .
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Before you pack your bags and leave in a huff, tour the assisted living residences that are within a reasonable drive from your home. Tour them by yourself or with a trusted friend on whom you can rely to be another pair of eyes and ears. Any place that discourages you from talking to its residences is a red flag. Make a short list of places you think are suitable for your MIL and make arrangements to go and visit them with your wife. You are going to have to come right out and ask your wife to accompany you to visit the places you have pre-selected because it's important to you and you are asking as her loving and patient husband.

Having a good residential director to help your wife see the benefits of her mother living in a place that can handle her growing needs will take some of the pressure off of you. If your wife refuses to have the discussion, or uses tears/emotional blackmail, then you know you have a bigger problem on your hands.

Perhaps the compromise will be that your MIL goes into assisted living in New Jersey and you and your wife start to travel and enjoy your retirement but come back to New Jersey for extended periods between trips. Whatever the compromise, both you and your wife are going to have to talk about your situation with her mother and your feelings openly and honestly.
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Wow! You and your wife are in desperate need of a break! I wonder if you could arrange a one day break. You and your wife find care for your mother-in-law for just a few hours. Y’all go get a couples massage and lunch out or whatever. Start out with small outings until your wife is comfortable with the caregiver and with the care her mom is receiving. Then work up to longer outings.
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Jack, there is so much at play here. So you retired at 54 and are now 60. You are quite young, though you may be feeling vulnerable as your brother died at 62. For those in good health, the 60’s and 70’s are the new middle age. You are very fortunate to have retired with many, many years ahead of you. It is unclear what you plan to do with them. You say you want to travel. Countrymouse gave some excellent suggestions about how to make this happen with your wife while still taking care of your MIL. In my mind, though, you can only travel so much. What other fulfilling activities do you have?

I, too, am in the camp of not making this an ultimatum for your wife.......unless that is your goal. Yes, your wife should be listening to you and taking your needs into account. Yes, she should be looking for ways to put you first while still making sure that her mother was being taken care of. There are so many options, especially since you say money is not a problem. But! This doesn’t mean you have to divorce her. Do you love her? Enough to be honest with her? Enough to give her the chance to really know what is at stake here? Do you still love her enough to tell her that you have been going to a therapist to vent about her, and to cousins who think you should give her an ultimatum, and to an agingcare website to get further support. But, my question is, support for what? Support for a decision you have already made or are leaning toward? Or support for how to stay in the marriage and make this work? Because it can, but your wife needs to know everything. Give her a chance. It will hurt her and she will probably feel betrayed, but not as much as with the dissolution of her marriage. Let her see the entire picture and what you have been doing and are planning to do.

My hope and prayer for you is that, as you are completely honest with your wife, her eyes and ears will be opened, and that you will both find a way to continue your marriage as well as care for your MIL. I pray you find a way to “rejoice in the wife of your youth”. Proverbs 5:18
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dlpandjep Feb 2019
Bless you Treeartist - you've given him Godly wisdom and I hope he will consider your advice. 
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Don't make her choose. That would be terrible. For her.....and you. I realize how frustrating it is to want to travel and live life, but just can't. With dementia, it will get to point that your wife sees, knows, and realizes, that mom must be placed in memory care. She won't be able to live alone, much longer when it gets a bit more advanced. My advice is patience, and Support your wife. This is no easy task for her. She is honoring her mom and you have done a lot to. Hang in there and y'all will be taking those Florida beach walks.
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shad250 Feb 2019
All well and good but it appears he is feeling the pull to FL ASAP
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Jack - Please stay in touch.  We are concerned for you.  Your wife's devotion to her mother is admirable - but should not be priority.  Doesn't she realize that one day in the not so distant future, her mother will be gone AND SO WILL YOU!  I have to wonder where her heart is.
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Jack, I must point out that you're hardly going to get what you want - to enjoy your golden years with your lovely wife - by leaving your wife. You'll be sitting on the cruise ship thinking "I'm sure I've forgotten something..."

You would not be a monster to force your wife to make that choice, but you would be silly because it is a classic False Dichotomy. Your wife does not have to choose one or the other. She does not have to abandon her mother to make better use of her time with you. She does not have to lose her husband and her own life to take good care of her mother.

Do try to discard certain resentments, such as those that spring from the cleaving thing. And, by the way, it is men who leave their parents and cleave to their wives' families in the Mosaic traditions. In Eastern cultures women are given into their husbands' families. But in no major tradition that I know of do married couples get shot of their elders altogether.

Then, pick your battles and array your forces carefully and start small. Your ruby wedding is a bit long to wait; when is your or your wife's birthday? Book the nicest short break you can imagine. Then you need to put the caretaking structure in place. No other family - what about friends or neighbours? You don't live in a vacuum, there must be people who know all of you well.

You want:
a good respite place in a nice facility;
a volunteers' visiting rota, so that MIL sees familiar faces daily;
cheerleading friends, so that your wife is encouraged to take this small but crucial step by everyone around.

The key thing is to set a really positive precedent. Wait for your wife to change her mind and yes, you will be pushing up daisies long before it happens. So instead - do the work. Do the research, make the enquiries, consult the professionals, handle the assessments and reservations. Leave your wife with nothing to worry about because YOU have attended fully to MIL's wellbeing, and nothing to do but take your hand.

Then, God willing, once this is under your belt and you have a good experience to draw on, you'll be free to explore further options with a more open mind on the part of all of you.

You will be thinking "oh they'll never agree."

Wrong.

If you say: "let's look for respite care so that we can get away for a break" she'll never agree. You are proposing that she undertakes a challenging project for an uncertain reward. And she is tired and fretful and feeling torn. Of course she won't agree.

If you say - oo I dunno, I'll pretend it's for me :) -

"we are going to NY for the weekend. Here is our full itinerary. On Thursday evening, you and I and mother are going to have dinner at Dragons' Nest, where Mrs Bradshaw will then welcome mother for her five day stay. Here is mother's schedule for the weekend, which Selma and Bill will be reporting on daily. Say yes, then I will answer any questions you have."

- you may need to be a teensy tiny bit masterful about it, but you will get a yes.

And if your MIL really is a sweet old lady, and can keep a secret, you might even get her on board as a conspirator, eh?

So. Stop asking for permission. Make what you want to happen, happen.
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shad250 Feb 2019
What he wants to happen is going to FL with or without the wife, cant blame him since he would not have to deal much with cold and snow.
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So, have you thought about respite?

You could do this in one of two ways. You could hire caregivers to come in while you're away, or you can find as Assisted Living facility that offers respite stays, usually a few weeks to a month.

I think that your wife may be approaching burn out in this situation and needs to be rescued from her tunnel vision.
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Jack - speaking as a wife whose mother stayed in our home for over 2 years, I could tell you taking care of her put so much stress on me and my kids, and in turn my husband as well. He is a very kind and understanding person and never once complains about my mother living with us, but I could not let her consume all my time and energy and leave nothing for my husband and kids as they are my priority. Last month, I made other arrangement and moved my mom out. Our home becomes much more peaceful. I thanked my husband for putting up with my mother for those 2 years.

It's also worth mentioning that at my wedding, my mother who was of sound mind at the time, gave a toast which in part said that for me to honor her, I should take care of my family and put my husband first.

Doesn't your wife see that she doesn't have any time and attention for you? Doesn't she know you're unhappy? I agree 100% that she broke the wedding vow she made with you.

Will she be open to marriage counseling? If not, you should still go by yourself. In the end, if she doesn't want to see your point of view, then that means she makes her choice. The ball will be in your court to make your choice.

I really hope that she will come around.
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mathisawesome Feb 2019
What an awesome toast! That would make a hard choice possible. What a gift your mother gave you.
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First of all, who is she married to-you or her mother? You only live once so do whatever you want to do. If not you will regret it.
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I don’t know how my husband hasn’t tossed me his set of house keys after all we’ve had to do for my old mother, but he hasn’t.

Regrettably sometimes as daughters we develop a codependent relationship with our mothers and we chase our tail our whole lives thinking that if we help mom she will love us/come around/ease our burden/thank us, you get my drift. And as a result, our husbands will ‘always be there’ because you are so reliable, love us unconditionally, and have patience the size of biblical proportions.

I’ve done that for many years but after enough counseling I finally got enough backbone to say, “Mr. Hotflash and I can’t do that today.” Or as is true now, “Mr. Hotflash’s spinal stenosis just wont allow him to do that anymore.” (He’s healthy and it’s being treated, but still...). It is only in an odd twist of fate as I care give for her she has actually started to say, “You need to be home with your husband.” But it took ME establishing that priority for her to know this.

If your wife has lost sight of you because mom “needs” this and “needs” that, she may be chasing her own tail to try and please her mother in an effort to assuage the anxiety her mother causes or has caused her for many years. “If I do just ONE more thing, she’ll say I don’t have to do any more.”

It is a tough dynamic and I feel for you both, but I even told my mom who I am caregiving for right now (but she’s hired private help) “No, Mr. Hotflash and I are tired, and we’ll be back tomorrow.” Your wife needs to see her mom as an independent person from her, not the enmeshed relationship that befalls so many of us.

Good luck my friend.
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Jackcooper Feb 2019
Thank you so much for taking the time to share those kind words. This may sound strange, but in a way it’s good to know I’m not the only one caught in this type of circumstance. I guess I’m just getting burnt out and seeing my retirement- which I’ve worked so hard for- being ruined. Thank you again.
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Well, my dad's only 97 and my husband and I are 70 but we were in a similar situation. My husband has been a saint in dealing with my father but last year we finally got my dad to move to assisted living and such a burden was lifted off us both. He didn't want to make the move but we just couldn't continue caring for him and trying to keep up his house any longer. It was not a sustainable situation and wasn't ever going to get better, only worse. He has adjusted and I can now enjoy visiting him instead of trying to do home maintenance and upkeep constantly.

My husband was going to continue to work as long as my dad was alive as we would be in this city but he is now looking at retirement and a move to Florida. My plan is to move to Florida but to make trips back to our home in VA about every 2-3 weeks for a few days to see my dad in assisted living and to get him to doctor appointments, etc. I know we are lucky to be able to afford this but I also think that my marriage would be over if we had to stay here indefinitely. I know that my dad can't live forever but he, like your MIL, is actually in good health with just some short-term memory problems, and this could continue for years.

I also have no siblings to share the burden and the care and I think it makes us think we have to do it all. I have much sympathy for both you, who seems as saintly as my husband, and for your wife who may be as conflicted as I have been. Your wife may also be depressed at how all this is working out. I know I was. I wanted to please everyone and was pleasing no one. It's a very sad way to live.

If your MIL is in basically good health, and has good mental status she will make friends and enjoy the socialization that the assisted living situation provides. I love it when I call my dad and he doesn't answer the phone because he is downstairs in the lounge or eating lunch/dinner with other residents. It's a fuller life than waiting for me to visit.

Please be very honest with your wife. I've been that wife and it's wrenching but she needs the truth. She needs to know what she is doing to you and she needs to know that her mother would probably not want her to give up her opportunity for happiness in order to care for her when there are other options. There are solutions out there if you work together to find them.
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Jackcooper Feb 2019
Thank you so much! I believe my wife and I need to do exactly what you’ve done. I’ve told my wife (repeatedly) that she’s not doing her mother any favors by letting her live by herself in a fairly big house that I can no longer maintain. In addition, there are many hazards and it’s only a matter of time before we find her at the bottom of a staircase, or fallen getting out of the bathtub, etc. Moreover, we can never get these years back- they’re slip-sliding away from us and I know her mother would be so much better off in assisted living. I’ve been seeing a counselor every month (regrettably, without my wife’s knowledge), basically to vent to. At the end of each session, she (my counselor) tells me my wife should be the one seeing her. I doubt she’ll go voluntarily, so I’m soon going to bring her to a session with me and insist that she take my place as the patient- or I’ll be enjoying my retirement by myself about a thousand miles away. Thanks again for your encouraging words.
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No.  I don't think you would be wrong to give her an ultimatum.  You've bent over backward to accommodate her mother - but are you sure you're willing to follow through if she choses her mother?  You might lose "the woman you love" and starting over won't be easy.  My heart goes out to you and honestly, I feel for your wife too.  Very difficult situation.

PS  The travel situation is definitely wrong - trips with you should be priority!
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Jackcooper Feb 2019
Thank you for your supportive words- please see my reply to jkm999.
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So your MIL chose to wait until she was 40 to have a child, she got to live her life. Sounds like she hit the age we all realize that we won't be young forever and bore a little helper. But now it is you and your wife's turn.

Your wife is being selfish and self-centered by not considering you 1st. Sorry, but my husband comes 1st and if people don't like it they can lump it.

What is your wife's excuse for thinking that a 100 year old woman needs a 3 bedroom house? That is far to large and most likely costing you lost income. It sounds like she was trained to be moms independence, it seems reasonable since you have been doing this for 25 years. Which is again selfish on your MILs part.

I would not be surprised if my husband gave me an ultimatum in this situation. It would be a reasonable response to being treated like a 2nd class citizen.

It is completely unfair for any adult to steal someone's life to prop them up. Regardless of her condition, she Mil is being careless of everyone's feelings but her own. Your wife is probably guilt ridden and feels like if she doesn't give mom her life she won't survive. To common with only children, trained to be obedient for life.

I would first recommend that you and your wife see a marriage counselor. She needs to hear from you, exactly how you feel and visa versa, in a completely safe environment. Resentment doesn't just go away, it needs to be addressed.

Why can't MIL be put in a condo or senior apartment in Florida? They might be more open to moving if she will have a home of her own. Maybe?

I am sorry for everyone in this situation. It is so unfair for parents to do this to the kids. I personally don't think a loving parent would, but that's just my opinion.

I hope that you find a good counselor and that you can salvage your marriage and find happiness together again.
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Segoline Feb 2019
Jack, good advice from previous.
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Jack, we can sort this out. Have you talked to clergy or anyone about?
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Jackcooper Feb 2019
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Your wife may also feel overwhelmed and stuck....

"I was tired of my lady, we´d been together too long
Like a worn-out recording, of a favorite song
So while she lay there sleeping, I read the paper in bed
And in the personals column, there was this letter I read
"If you like Pina Coladas, and getting caught in the rain
If you´re not into yoga, if you have half a brain
If you like making love at midnight, in the dunes of the cape
I´m the love that you´ve looked for, write to me, and escape"
I didn´t think about my lady, I know that sounds kind of mean
But me and my old lady, had fallen into the same old dull routine
So I wrote to the paper, took out a personal ad
And though I´m nobody´s poet, I thought it wasn´t half bad
"Yes, I like Pina Coladas, and getting caught in the rain
I´m not much into health food, I am into champagne
I´ve got to meet you by tomorrow noon, and cut through all this red tape
At a bar called O'Malley's, where we´ll plan our escape"
So I waited with high hopes, then she walked in the place
I knew her smile in an instant, I knew the curve of her face
It was my own lovely lady, and she said, "Oh, it´s you"
And we laughed for a moment, and I said, "I never knew"
"That you liked Pina Coladas, and getting caught in the rain
And the feel of the ocean, and the taste of champagne
If you like making love at midnight, in the dunes of the cape
You´re the love that I´ve looked for, come with me, and escape"
"If you like Pina Coladas, and getting caught in the rain
If you´re not into yoga, if you have half a brain
If you like making love at midnight, in the dunes of the cape
I'm the love that you've looked for, come with me, and escape"
Songwriters: Rupert Holmes
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dlpandjep Feb 2019
Great song!  Thanks for the memory....
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You are not a monster. Not at all.
Your spouse may have made ' the promise' never to,put mom in a place.many of us made the same one but it became overwhelming and not doable. As it cost us job, health, relationships.

Jack, you matter here too. You do.

Yes, it's time for mil to go to facility.

Stick around sir. Please.
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