Follow
Share
Read More
This question has been closed for answers. Ask a New Question.
Find Care & Housing
1 2 3
Have you asked dad to sign off on you having access to his records?  I would want to see the incident reports.  What Dad describes as flirting, if unwanted, the other party may describe differently.   Some states have higher level charges for harassment of people over 65.  People's standards as to sexual harassment have changed since when your dad was young.  I would ask, has he been shown the incident reports and does he understand how serious this is?  With the first one, they should have given simple rules to avoid, did this happen? 

It may be the other party is incompetent, and cannot be deemed to consent, and someone has to explain to dad
Helpful Answer (5)
Report

Same issue with my spouse. He has been declared incompetent to protect him from getting in trouble. I’m paying for a sitter at $22 per hour. Most of that time is watching him eat or sleep! I’m trying to negotiate fewer hours of supervision.
Helpful Answer (2)
Report

The question is is the person(s) he’s flirting with reciprocating? If so there’s not much anyone can do (older folks are allowed to have fun too) short of telling them to keep their clothes on outside of the rooms. I’ve never heard of a sitting fee or any fee to keep anyone especially someone with dementia from doing things. It does sound like they don’t want to deal with him and FYI there wouldn’t be a felony/jail - he is not of sound mind and the director should know these basic things. I would however, check in with the ladies he’s been in contact with and just make sure he’s not doing stuff when he’s not supervised (by you, the family, I’ve known older folks esp with Alzheimer’s or dementia to “behave” when family’s around, much like small children who tear the house up til mom or dad walk in and they’re suddenly angels) find out as much as you can and request a copy of his records. This seems like it can go one of two very different ways but regardless I do think you should find a new place for him, one that specializes in his ailments.
Helpful Answer (5)
Report

Verbal-only flirting should not be a felony, but unwanted physical contact might be. Your father may need a higher degree of supervision. If his current facility does not offer closer supervision, look for a facility that does. That greater supervision will cost more than basic AL placement, but might be less than a private aide.
Helpful Answer (4)
Report

Obviously, he is being allowed to mingle about and despite your word friendly, there are complaints being made or staff noticing his friendly hands. He is not too demented to understand no touching and they cannot watch him or they are stating his level of care is now one on one. Yes, they have to present a report to any receiving facility, folks it is just like when teacher told you about Johnny's behavior, but he only dies it at school. It is time your family decide what you can do with your father, it is very common for any senior with declining cognition to focus on other things. I doubt this is new, consider what he was doing at home. Placement is not for everyone and if he is handsy, he might even do this with staff, I have endured my share of harassment from aging men who only think of what is declining, so you might speak with his doctor about this, or you will be taking him home and need to watch out for him as he decline doing same with relatives. This is all part of dementia, not everyone has this, but I have had wives complain of their spouses being too different and reports of using prostitutes, or watching pornography, they were appalled at the difference in their behavior. I would take it seriously, no shake down, if he take advantage of another resident, they are telling you they are bound to call Police, and there is other families they must protect, no different than boys will be boys, and look the other way while he is being friendly. Also, they can just tell you to come get him. Be careful unless you are ready to watch him 24-7.
Helpful Answer (4)
Report

So we have an issue split down the middle. One side assumes your dad is innocent and the other side assumes he is "assaulting" female residents. Here is my take on it. You should ask to speak to the women involved first before you make any assumptions. It frankly DOES NOT MATTER whether your father "touched" without consent or if it was just words: some one is uncomfortable-period. If you grew up with your dad you are used to his behavior, others might find it intrusive. Personally, I don't like people in my space and am uncomfortable around it. I find it not to be endearing but obnoxious. The lady(ies) in question may feel they have no say in what happens. That generation just got on with things and didn't talk about them. So don't make an assumption either way until you talk to someone about it. As someone else said MC facilities are a lot higher priced so tread carefully.
Helpful Answer (4)
Report

They could put him on a psychiatric unit, then refuse to take him back. Happens all the time. That is how those places get rid of patients who give them problems.
Helpful Answer (2)
Report

You do not indicate if your dad has actually "assaulted" anyone. (by that I mean has he touched anyone that either did not want to be touched or touched them in a way that was inappropriate?)
If he is jut verbally "flirting", holding hands that's not enough to have a "sitter"
If he is wandering into someone's room, for example someone posted that a man is going into her mom's room at night, that behavior would not be acceptable.
You mention dementia. Is it possible that dad would be better in a Memory Care part of the facility, I am assuming that the Senior Living residence you are talking about is Assisted Living. If he is already in MC then the director could find a much better way to handle the situation. Redirecting him to another activity if the attention he is giving is unwanted.
Have you seen the "incident reports"? And were you informed each time an incident was recorded?
Helpful Answer (4)
Report

Tell them you checked and they are not correct.
Your Dad just flirts and there's nothing wrong with a little flirting..

now if he's making unwanted advances, you'll have to let him know that the lady made a complaint and she doesn't want him flirting with her and he'll have to stop.

They would never prosecute a 90 yr old or send him to jail.

Also if they try to kick him out, stand your ground and ask to see complaints against your Dad and if there are some, talk to the one making it to make sure it was them.

Then tell them your Dad will not be moving and if they try to kick him out, you will take it to the News and it will make it bad looking for them.

They wouldn't want the bad publicity and they really don't have the authority to just kick him out, he's paying to live there so they would probably have to go thru a lengthy court like trying to evict a non paying Tenant from your home.

They won't do it.
Helpful Answer (1)
Report
disgustedtoo May 2021
"They would never prosecute a 90 yr old or send him to jail."

Just like not all facilities are created equal, nor are home care-giving situations always a paradise and people are all different too, police aren't always up to snuff with everything, including dementia. Have you not seen the various reports about Karen Garner? Not just arrested, but physically assaulted, hog-tied, left for hours IN JAIL with multiple injuries they caused and laughed about while the watched their own body camera recordings. There are many good police, but there are too many who should not be in this "profession."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_of_Karen_Garner
(0)
Report
I can't picture a single judge in this country sentencing a 90yo man to jail. In fact, with the pace of court cases today, even if he were charged tomorrow with a serious crime, he'd probably be 93 before he was ever sentenced. I think they are more concerned about what will happen to them IF "something happens."

I say it is time to move dad somewhere else. He might need more services than this "senior living residence" provides. And you can always file a complaint after her is moved. Just remember to document document document.

Some people are naturally more touchy-feely than others (my dh is) and just that level of getting into someone's comfort zone can cause issues.
Helpful Answer (3)
Report
OldAlto May 2021
Doubtful a 90 year old would go to jail, but they could still impose a fine if he was found guilty of harassment, assault, whatever they would deem it.
(1)
Report
I'm not addressing what the facility is accusing your dad of doing. I'm talking about a VERY large corporation that owns numerous facilities across the country. They regularly over-bill meds. They've been giving my mother 1 shower a week instead of the 2 I'm paying for, etc.
The big one....the director called saying a resident (my mom's friend) was found crying on a couch and he assumed it was me. I said he's lying or his staff was lying. He doesn't like me because I call every month to discuss the care my mother has not received (that I pay for).
I involved Corporate 3 times and got no where.
There are class action lawsuits against this corporation for billing problems, deliberately being short staffed, wrong meds. You can look it up. Don't believe EVERYTHING the director says.
Helpful Answer (5)
Report

flirting may not be what’s happening, I disagree with most here, I’d want to see incident reports and see who/what/when/where. MC is expensive too, but the way this director is handling this seems to me like they’d like him moved.
Helpful Answer (3)
Report
Dosmo13 May 2021
Yes. More information is definitely needed. There should be incident reports to back up their claims. Otherwise you don't know if his actions are unacceptable or is it what he's saying. Is he touching or just talking? Is the woman complaining or is it just family that's concerned. "Flirting" is not uncommon, on the part of both men and women, in nursing or elder care facilities, but staff should know if it is more than that.

Doesn't sound like staff considers your fathers actions harmless. But, apparently, they aren't providing any sensible measures to keep the two apart. Their concern that he could be "charged with a felony" sounds like an over-reaction...makes me think they are not the most competent or well-informed bunch. He will not be charged with anything.
Yes, you may be better off (and dad as well) by moving him elsewhere.
(2)
Report
Flirting is not a felony. If he assaults someone, charges are filed, he goes to court and he is convicted, yes, he could be sentenced.
However, unless there is a serious assault, I would not be worried about a felony and jail time.
He needs to be aware of boundaries and stop the behavior, that is for certain.
The facility has guidelines and rules. Breaking the rules could cause him to be evicted. If things get out of hand, family members from whomever he is touching could file charges.
It is very serious, but I do not think felony is the case.
Helpful Answer (3)
Report

You haven't indicated whether the lady welcomes and reciprocates with your dad's flirtations. What have you observed? Have you met any of her family members? What is their perspective?

My dad started a sweet romance with a lady when both were in the independent living section of a facility. He was in his late 80s; she was similar in age. This was a mutual attraction and relationship. The romance continued when both had to move to the assisted living side of the facility. Unfortunately, the relationship was short-lived because the health of both deteriorated quickly. But it was sweet and brought late-life joy to both.

The key is whether the attraction is mutual. Consenting adults don't need a sitter. On the other hand, unwelcome advances could be a crime.
Helpful Answer (6)
Report

Does your dad have the ability to understand that his friendliness is not welcomed?
Is your dad on medication for his dementia?
Has any of the family members that live where your dad lives tried to sue, or is there proof of his behaviors?
People with dementia have a different brain set, and whole doe the split second it is explained to them they agree to stop, but in the next second they have totally forgotten what the conversation was about.
I would get in touch with an elder care attorney, speak with his doctor about the issues as well as an ombudsman with regards to the center he is currently living. We are living in a time that people are upset calling Pepe la pew a mother because he made advances on a unwilling subject. Back in the day of where your Dad's memory bank lives, his behavior was considered acceptable, but with his diminished mind he doesn't know what the new rules are and won't be able to learn them. While I can't say if he would be considered a felon, I do feel that the living facility is possibly putting the shakedown on you.
Helpful Answer (5)
Report

First, instead of jumping to the defense of Romeo, let’s assume he is touching at least one other resident. Let’s also assume that his advances are unwanted and go from there. If your family knows your dad has historically had affairs or an aggressive interest in sex, they might not find it hard to believe that Dad is acting out a historical pattern of behavior. Or it could be a new behavior that is a product of dementia. Now go from there. Unless you have other reasons to doubt the information provided by the nursing home about your father, why would you now assume they are lying to get extra staff to reign in your dad?

Your dad is no different than any other sexual predator under these circumstances and will be treated the same way. Attempting to sexually touch a female resident against her will is against the law. The problem is pinpointing when the behavior occurs, finding a reasonably priced sitter and tasking the nursing home with keeping them separated as much as possible.

Your dad should not be allowed to molest other residents and I find all these posts assuming he is innocent and leaping to his defense a little puzzling and dismissive of the rights of women who are residing in this home. Nursing homes are not now nor have they ever been staffed to eyeball residents 24 x 7. If a resident has a behavior problem, the nursing home has a right and a duty to get that behavior under control or ask the clients family to move him. I think your kidding yourself if you characterize his behavior as “flirting.” It’s more than that or they wouldn’t be asking you to pay for extra supervision. At minimum, your father is a nuisance who requires constant observation.
Helpful Answer (6)
Report
CarolineY May 2021
I agree with you 100%. I am really surprised by the responses from others about this being a shakedown by the facility or otherwise. Perhaps the confusion is with the OP’s description of the behavior being ‘flirting.’ You guys - the facility would not ask for extra supervision for flirting! He is exhibiting behavior that is harassing at least one other resident. The family has an opportunity to get his behavior under control. It really might indicate that he needs a higher level of care.
(5)
Report
See 3 more replies
It's good to get connected with a local Ombudsman or social worker or agency that specializes in senior issues, who can advise you of your father's rights and options, as suggested in the responses below. This may not be a scam, but there may be other less expensive ways to address the issue. For example, he may not need a full-time sitter. If it's just verbal flirting, that's one thing, but if he is developing dementia, it is possible that there may be inappropriate behavior. Talk to his case manager at his facility and get the details and try to understand what they are concerned about. Does his facility have a memory care unit? Would your father understand about the rules and boundaries of his facility, if you talk to him?
Helpful Answer (3)
Report

Well. Could be the facility is being paranoid. Could be you're being wilfully obtuse. Let's assume for the sake of discussion that it's somewhere in the middle.

Imagine that your 80-something mother is the resident somebody else's 90 year old dad flirts with. And imagine that she has been very upset by this gentleman's friendliness, especially when he gets touchy feely about it. A member of the lunchtime staff privately explains to you that he pulled her chair out for her and guided her onto it as she sat down.

He thinks he's being gallant. She thinks he's the pest with a hundred paws.

And right now, in these interesting times, you bet a gentleman in front of the wrong jury could go to jail for being too friendly. Moreover, a facility that did not keep him under supervision could well find itself liable.

Two questions:
1. What have you seen of your father's friendliness-with-dementia? Try looking at it through eyes which are not fond, understanding and tolerant.
2. How able is your father to understand how his friendly flirtations are being received?
Helpful Answer (5)
Report

Let me suggest you take this issue to your local Ombudsman - who is paid by the gov't and whose job it is to " investigate individuals' complaints against maladministration, especially that of public authorities." I had no idea what "ombudsman" was, but the contact info was provided in the packet from my mom's facility. She stepped in and helped greatly. Good luck.
Helpful Answer (5)
Report

Move him to a caring rather than a threatening facility. Make sure you write a google review about the facility.
Helpful Answer (4)
Report

So it's a felony for an elderly person to talk to someone of the opposite sex now? Ask to see the "incident reports." I would check other places and see what their policy is, don't let them push you into a corner.
Helpful Answer (4)
Report
jacobsonbob May 2021
Considering the way so many things are going in the US these days, it wouldn't surprise me, but of course some people are exempt! (LOL I wonder if "gender studies" or some field of study not yet dreamt up will address this at some point!)
(0)
Report
I suggest a good elder care attorney not only to protect you and your dad but also others in this facility who may go thru the same thing (scam), plus this may be something that should be reported to the property authorities and a good attorney can walk you through all of this.
Helpful Answer (1)
Report

I had a neighbor whose father had a negative "report file" that followed him from one LTC facility, but she seemed to think this was due to it being a Medicaid facility. The rules and what's allowed could be different.

I'm not a big fan of getting litigation/lawyers involved, but you might ask a pro in this area if there is any legal recourse for the situation if the facility were to proceed with either course of action, and mention this to facility staff. A counter threat of legal action, even if it's an empty threat, may be enough to get them to back down from this position.
Helpful Answer (4)
Report

I certainly agree with posters who feel this is a scam, and that you shouldn't give in to them, but rather, find another place for your father.   To me, this seems like an "entrapment" situation that they're creating.


A few other observations:

1.  I'm not sure whether one facility can legally provide "incident" reports to another.    That might be a HIPAA breach.   An Ombudsperson might have the answer to this question.

There also might be the issue of fraudulent, or "doctored up" creations of incidents to support their position.   That would fall into a category of intent to deceive, perhaps just to get him out of that senior living.

2.    Is this actually a medical facility, or one that falls more into the category of apartments/homes for rent, with nominal medical people on staff?    If the latter, there are anti-discriminatory laws that might  address their actions (although w/o citing all the laws, I believe they're more oriented toward racial discrimination, which makes me wonder if that's in play here???)   Is your father black, Asian, or other race other than white?   Maybe that's the issue.

2.  Have you done any kind of search, online, or through a PI, on the history of this place?   I found it a little difficult to believe that this kind of threat has been created and enacted only against your father.    This may be a scam of greater proportions than anyone realizes.

3.   How did you select this facility? Was it recommended by anyone in the medical field?   I recall our first experience when one of the hospital discharge planners recommended various rehab facilities, one of which as I learned later has the reputation for accepting people in for rehab, but some of those folks don't come out alive.

Over the years, I heard this same observation from multiple sources.   The next time the discharge planner casually included this place, I put her on the spot and asked if she was aware of the casualty rate.   She was, but responded with some muttered explanation of the discharge planners having to follow hospital rules, kicking the responsibility higher up.

4.  I would also contact a state ombudsperson to see what background information might be available on this place.   Do you know how to search the state records to determine ownership and vested interests?   If you do, cross check the names of the principals to see if they're involved in other facilities, then search online to see if you can find similar behavior.

Or is this place a franchise?   When I was searching for home care for my father, I searched the state records and found that one company was a franchise, with some individuals holding franchises in different areas of the state.  

If the company is an LLC, that's another story, with potential pressure exerted by members to maximize their investment contributions.
Helpful Answer (1)
Report

Seems like a total shakedown and scam to me. Why $5000 a month for the 'sitter'? Does the AL demand you use their staff as 'sitters' or would bringing in your own be prohibited? If such is the case then it's definitely a scam. Someone or more likely several people stand to pocket a lot of money from the poor 'marks' (the families of elderly residents) with this particular hustle.
Ask these people who run the place what exactly do they provide for the $4500 a month per resident that they get. Part of the bill is supposed to be for security.
Now I've worked in elder care both in-home and in community assisted living for almost 25 years. I can tell you for a fact that no 'sitter' costs $5000 a month. They earn minimum wage. Never in this entire time have I ever heard of a facility trying to more than double the cost of residence because some old grandpa or grandma likes to flirt or is in a senior relationship with another resident. Most of the time the elderly residents had lived in a marriage with someone for pretty much their entire adult lives. Dementia or not when you've lived with a partner for 40 or 50 years and they're gone, a person will find a boyfriend or girlfriend regardless of their age or if they're living in an assisted community. These relationships are fine. They help the people who are in them too. Really, the only time it poses a problem is if one party isn't agreeable. Pretty much the same relationship rules apply for the elderly as do for younger people. If a resident has dementia and it's advanced to the point where they're aggressive and the other residents feel threatened, an assisted living community is no longer suitable for that person and they aren't supposed to let them stay. They belong in a nursing home or memory care facility at that point.
That $5000 a month for 'sitter' fees is a scam. The AL your dad is in is scamming families. For sure yours isn't the only family they've tried to work this hustle on.
If your state (Oklahoma) has an Ombudsman or any similar elderly protection service, I'd definitely bring this scam to their attention.
Helpful Answer (3)
Report
CathyS May 2021
My mom was in an Independent Living Center and at a certain point in her stay there, the director decided my mom needed a sitter. She had some home health services so that agency was required by the director to set up the sitter services. I was not involved in the decision as there was no POA at that time. The cost: $240 a night (7pm to 7am). So monthly that was going to run $7200 over her $2400 rent. The only way this turned out to be a good thing was that my mom finally chose an AL facility and moved there to save money. So I agreed with the ILC director, just not the way it was handled by her.
(1)
Report
See 1 more reply
Ad an update to my previous post, below is the Oklahoma statute regarding assault and battery.OUJI-CR 4-26
ASSAULT AND BATTERY - ELEMENTS
No person may be convicted of assault and battery unless the State has proved beyond a reasonable doubt each element of the crime. These elements are:
First, willful;
Second, unlawful;
Third, use of force or violence;
Fourth, upon another person.
_____________________________
Statutory Authority: 21 O.S. 2011, §§ 641, 642.
Committee Comments
Simple assault, simple battery, and simple assault and battery are misdemeanor crimes in Oklahoma. Oklahoma defines an assault in accordance with both of the common law definitions: an attempt to commit a battery, or the intentional placing of another in apprehension of receiving an immediate battery. 

Simple battery is also defined in Oklahoma in accordance with the common law concept. It is an unlawful beating, or use of wrongful physical violence or constraint upon the person of another, without that person's consent. Minnix v. State, supra. See generally R. Perkins, Criminal Law 107-13 (2d ed. 1969).
Every battery, by definition, includes an assault, although an assault can be perpetrated without a battery. The Court of Criminal Appeals has held that, when an assault culminates in a battery, the offense is assault and battery, and prosecution should be commenced for that grade of assault and battery which is reasonably supported by the State's proof of the facts. Hall v. State, 1957 OK CR 34, 309 P.2d 1096.
Specific intent is not an element of simple assault, simple battery, or simple assault and battery. Hainta v. State, 1979 OK CR 61, 596 P.2d 906; Morris v. State, 1973 OK CR 421, 515 P.2d 266.
In Steele v. State, 1989 OK CR 48, ¶12, 778 P.2d 929, 931, the Court of Criminal Appeals held that only the slightest force or touching is necessary to constitute the force
required for battery.
This degree of force is reflected by the definition of force in OUJI-CR 4-28.
(2018 Supp.)

Since all four elements must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, if no force is involved, it cannot be proved.

Caveat: I am not an attorney. I am a retired Crime Analyst with 26 years experience writing search, seizure, and arrest affidavits for warrants.
Helpful Answer (5)
Report
MargaretMcKen May 2021
This says misdemeanor, not felony, though I haven't checked the cases cited or the rest of the legislation. The police aren't so desperate for work that they would normally prosecute for just minor touching, eg a handshake. It would normally happen after something like a shouting match with threats, followed by a small poke in the chest. That is not what is happening here.
(2)
Report
In Texas there is a law regarding "touch assault". In brief, anyone who touches another person can be charged with assault if the touch is unwanted, and/or the person doing the touching knows that the touch is unwanted, or reasonably expects the touch to be unwanted. It is a felony. I don't know that any reasonable District Attorney would entertain filing charges against anyone who has been diagnosed with dementia or ALZ.
You could Google Oklahoma Criminal Code for Touch Assault to see if in fact there is such a law.
I would also contact the State Agency that governs NH, SNF, AL and MC facilities to see if there have been other complaints against the facility for similar situations, i.e., threats of arrest.
Ask to see the incident reports,, and stand there until theyproduce them in front of you to keep them from manufacturing them.. A copy of those reports should be in his medical record and i would demand to review it.. If they dont produxe it on the spot,I would definitely move your LO from this facility. And report them to the agency that regulates the facilities.
Helpful Answer (4)
Report

That’s ridiculous. After my mom died my dad was moved into the memory care unit of the facility they were in. He immediately took to a lady that looked a bit like mom. She didn’t mind. Her dementia was worse than my dads. The staff was great. They Would sit them together during meals. They’d hold hands sometimes. When I’d visit he tell me to say goodby to mom as I was leaving.

Moving elders is a pain. But I think I’d go to battle with these jerks.
Helpful Answer (14)
Report
BurntCaregiver May 2021
Windyridge,

You are right. The family should not let this go. It sounds to me like a scam that will bring in a lot of money that no doubt will be divided among a very small circle of people.
For sure the Louise0717's family isn't the only one being hustled by this AL.
(4)
Report
What do you mean by flirting? Have you read the incidence reports? Has he touched her without her consent? Does the lady resist his advances, whatever they may be? Do they sit together, hold hands, enjoy each other's company, or what? I would certainly read their documentation to see what these incidents are. Is his senior living residence independent living, assisted living or MC? They each require a different level of attention by the staff. Living with dementia can be a lonely experience. It is not unusual to witness two strangers in a facility holding hands. It's about companionship.

Don't hire a sitter. I would be looking for a different facility now. The director has no business suggesting your dad might not be accepted, Whether he's accepted or not is the new facilities decision.
Helpful Answer (13)
Report
Isthisrealyreal May 2021
Unfortunately the current facility can cause problems with a move by falsely reporting behaviour issues.

This sounds like extortion to me and I would be moving my loved one without any documents from the current facility.
(9)
Report
Memory Care may be better for him, but this does sound like a shakedown to me.
Helpful Answer (4)
Report

1 2 3
This question has been closed for answers. Ask a New Question.
Ask a Question
Subscribe to
Our Newsletter